The Complete Moira, Part 8
Welcome to the final part of our Moira MacTaggert read-through. For the previous chapters see here: Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, Part 5, Part 6 and Part 7.
When we left off, Excalibur had just been cancelled, leaving Moira without a regular title to appear in. But she’s still around, still hunting for the Legacy Virus, and still supposedly in declining health. The final years of Moira’s (original) published life turn out to be big on pointless cameos and appearances where she does little more than explain the plot.
X-Men Unlimited vol 1 #21 by Todd DeZago, Andy Smith & Andrew Hennessy (“Devil’s Haircut”, December 1998). Strong Guy phones Muir Isle to ask Wolfsbane and Madrox for help with a possible alien invasion. Moira is there, and she’s back to working on the Legacy Virus.
Gambit vol 3 #2 by Fabian Nicieza, Steve Skroce & Rob Hunter (“Stormbringers”, March 1999). Gambit visits Muir Isle so that Moira can run some tests on him. Excalibur have now left, and Moira is working full time on the cure (pretty much alone). Naturally, Gambit tries to steal some files, and sets off a ridiculously elaborate failsafe mechanism that he manages to stop before it wipes all her data.
Magneto Rex #1 by Joe Pruett, Brandon Peterson & Matt Banning (“Ascendance”, May 1999). Moira appears briefly in some vox pops about Magneto’s seizure of Genosha. She says she’s lucky to have escaped alive from her previous encounters with Magneto, and that “dark times are coming, mark my words”. I suppose with hindsight you can read Moira as already knowing that the new mutant nation of Genosha will get swiftly wiped out by Sentinels. At the time, this read a little weirdly, since Moira normally tries to defuse anti-mutant sentiment in her TV interviews, rather than tell people that they’re right to worry.
Gambit Annual ’99 by Fabian Nicieza, Walter McDaniel et al (“With or Without You”, 1999). Moira plays the generic scientist role. She runs some tests on Gambit, which lead to us all learning more about Mary Purcell, the spirit who was living inside his body at the time. Mary is purged, and Moira verifies that Gambit is okay now.
Warlock vol 5 #7 by Louise Simonson, Pascual Ferry et al (“Meanwhile”, April 2000). As far as I can tell, this isn’t even listed on Marvel’s website, let alone available on Marvel Unlimited. But it’s just more of generic scientist Moira, as Warlock brings his new friends Lock and Psi to Muir Isle, where they meet Moira and Wolfsbane. As you probably guessed, Moira helps to advance the plot by running some tests.
Uncanny X-Men vol 1 #375 by Alan Davis, Adam Kubert & Batt (“I am Not Now, Nor Have I Ever Been”) / X-Men vol 2 #95 by Alan Davis, Tom Raney & Scott Hanna (“Do Unto Others”) / X-Men Unlimited vol 1 #25 by Joe Pruett, Brett Booth & Sal Regla (“In Remembrance”, all December 1999). These are all issues from the storyline where Wolverine is replaced by a Skrull impostor. Once again, Moira is simply the generic scientist who shows up to advance the plot. After “Wolverine” is killed, Moira comes to the X-Men Mansion to help in the autopsy, which exposes him as a Skrull. She also helps to treat Marrow and Mikhail Rasputin, and then she hangs around for a bit in order to explain the plot, and then get word that the real Wolverine has shown up alive, albeit as a Horseman of Apocalypse.
Uncanny X-Men vol 1 #376 by Alan Davis, Terry Kavanagh, Roger Cruz et al (“Filling in the Blanks”, January 2000) / X-Men vol 2 #96 by Alan Davis & Mark Farmer (“The Gathering”, January 2000) / Wolverine vol 2 #146-147 by Fabian Nicieza, Erik Larsen, Mike Miller, Roger Cruz et al (“Through a Dark Tunnel” / “Into the Light”, January & February 2000). Four issues from the crossover “Apocalypse: The Twelve.” Once again, Moira is just there to be the generic support scientist – though she does get to shoot at Horseman Wolverine, and she helps Psylocke to use Cerebro.
Nearly a year passes before Moira’s next (and final) storyline. Powers of X #6 has a diary entry, which must go here, in which she decides to remove herself from the world, and forms a plan with Charles Xavier to fake her death using a “Shi’ar golem”.
Uncanny X-Men vol 1 #388 by Chris Claremont, Salvador Larroca et al (“Dream’s End, part 1”, December 2000). On Muir Isle, Moira and some generic scientists watch Robert Kelly’s presidential campaign on the news. She isn’t impressed. Meanwhile, Mystique successfully tests a version of the Legacy Virus, supposedly created by her, which only affects normal humans. Mystique and Sabretooth show up on Muir Isle, only to be instantly recognised by Wolfsbane. At the same time, over in the X-Men Mansion, Rogue (whose powers are acting weirdly at this point) also detects Mystique and Sabretooth arriving on the island. Professor X is for some reason unable to reach Moira telepathically, so he sends Rogue, Wolverine and Bishop to help. They arrive just in time to see the Research Centre explode.
Part 2 of the crossover takes place in Cable vol 1 #87, but it involves a different plot thread, and Moira doesn’t appear.
Bishop: The Last X-Man #16 by Scott Lobdell, Joe Pruett, Thomas Derenick et al (“Dream’s End, part 3”, December 2000). Bishop, Rogue, Wolverine and Wolfsbane enter the wreckage of the Research Centre, and try to rescue Moira. Moira is badly injured from the explosion, but she tells them that she has finally figured out the cure to the Legacy Virus – inspired by Mystique’s own recent experiments.
X-Men vol 2 #108 by Chris Claremont, Leinil Francis Yu, Brett Booth et al (“Dream’s End, part 4”, January 2001). In a gloriously nonsensical piece of plotting, the X-Men decide to fly the dying Moira all the way back to the X-Men Mansion on the other side of the Atlantic – rather than, say, taking her to the local hospital.
Moira tells them that her insight into the Legacy Virus cure must not be lost. Rogue offers to use her memory absorption powers, but Moira claims that those powers are too unstable to be a reliable way of preserving the information. (As I’ve mentioned, there was indeed a storyline at this point about Rogue’s powers acting erratically.) So Professor X and Jean Grey travel to the jet in astral form.
This is where we get the scene that calls for some real explanation from Hickman: Jean watches as the astral forms of Xavier and Moira “become one” (in a panel which also mentions that they were lovers, and draws the “becoming one” as, well, exactly what you’re thinking). As they, er, “become one”, the information about the cure passes between them. Charles is too in love to break the contact and is at risk of dying with Moira, so Jean calls in Cable, and together they help keep Charles back. As her spirit seemingly departs for the afterlife, Moira tells Charles that she has known joy with him and is not afraid because the beauty and peace that awaits; she loves him, and wishes him well “until we meet again”. There’s a slightly extended version of this scene in a flashback in X-Men: Legacy vol 1 #216, and a single panel flashback of Rahne holding Moira’s body in New Mutants vol 2 #11, but neither of them add anything important.
So… that’s quite the ruse, if we’re to take it at face value. The obvious problems here are that two high-level telepaths, who presumably aren’t in on the scheme, are watching it all happen; and Uncanny X-Men #389 (which has scenes of Moira’s funeral) has Xavier spending most of an issue reminiscing to himself about her death and their past relationship. This is all quite tricky to explain away. And this Shi’ar golem must apparently have a convincing astral form.
On the other hand… Charles Xavier is certainly not above faking his own death, let alone Moira’s. And “Dream’s End” is an incoherent mess to start with. Most obviously, it asks us to believe that Mystique has suddenly become a world-class medical researcher capable of modifying a virus in ways that even Moira hadn’t thought of. And then she blows up Muir Isle for… well, for no terribly clear reason explained within the story itself. I suppose the original idea was to stop Moira from curing the anti-human version of the Legacy Virus, but it’s all very hazy. Hickman ties Mystique quite closely to Moira, so some of the dodgy plotting in “Dream’s End” can be explained if Mystique is in on the scheme too. But you’ve still got the grandiose astral-projection death scene to explain away.
And there ended the story of Moira MacTaggert, until House of X came along to reveal that she wasn’t dead after all. Or… oh, hold on…
X-Men: Deadly Genesis #1 by Ed Brubaker, Trevor Hairsine & Kris Justice (“Deadly Genesis”, January 2006). Moira appears extensively in video diaries and flashbacks in this series. But she also seemingly appears in issue #1 as a ghost, leading Sean to the room where her records of the lost X-Men team are hidden. Following the Hickman retcons, it’s conceivable that this might in fact be the real Moira after all, though why she’d do it in that way is unclear.
X-Statix Presents: Dead Girl #2-3 and #5 by Peter Milligan, Nick Dragotta & Mike Allred (April, May & July 2006). Moira is among the characters seen in the afterlife in this miniseries. She’s running a book group along with Gwen Stacy and Mockingbird. They’re reading James Joyce.
Chaos War: X-Men #1-2 by Louise Simonson, Chris Claremont & Doug Braithwaite (February & March 2011). This two-issue miniseries was a tie-in to the “Chaos War” event, in which various characters temporarily returned from the dead thanks to disruption in the afterlife. In particular, a makeshift X-Men team appears, consisting of the original Thunderbird, Banshee, two Madrox duplicates, two of the Stepford Cuckoos, and Moira herself – who proceeds to turn into Destiny over the course of the story. Oh, and the story also claims that Muir Isle is a mystically significant place, because it’s a nexus of ley lines.
So even though Moira never died after all, she still shows up as a ghost in a few issues. Oops. But she’s far from the first character where this has happened, and the Official Handbook even has a standing explanation to the effect that confusing and misleading things appear in the afterlife – in other words, it seems to be just generally accepted that this stuff can be ignored with impunity. So her posthumous appearances… didn’t happen. Or rather, they aren’t really her. In Chaos War, the weird mutation into Destiny gives us a hook to hang that on.
So, where does all this leave us? Hickman’s retcon doesn’t fit seamlessly with Moira’s history, but the contradictions are far fewer than you might expect. That’s partly because even though Moira was a regular fixture in the X-books for a long time, relatively few stories were actually focussed on her. Much of the time, she’s doing plot mechanics.
There are maybe three main areas where Hickman’s retcon causes problems that really do call for explanation. One is how on earth she faked her death, how the “golem” thing squares with what we see in “Dream’s End”, and why so many high-end telepaths seem to be taken in by it. But we can be fairly confident that Hickman will get to that in due course, or at least give the benefit of the doubt on that one. Number two is the storyline about her being the sole human infected by the Legacy Virus. The retcon explains why she was the only infected human – she’s actually a mutant after all – but that really doesn’t explain the conversations she has on the topic with Professor X. Number three is Moira’s apparent lack of interest in the techno organic characters that have crossed her path, despite her retconned knowledge of their potential significance. – that’s easier to explain but still something of a tension.
On the other hand, as we’ve seen, there are plenty of places where Moira’s history didn’t make all that much sense to begin with, and where Hickman’s retcon either dovetails nicely with the original, or provides potential explanations that plug existing plotholes. And while there are undoubtedly issues that call for further explanation, the biggest problems affect stories that were unsatisfactory in the first place. It’s not a huge problem if the eventual explanation winds up heavily retconning them – and it most likely will.
As for Moira’s persona, though, it fits decently well with Hickman. There are broadly three main readings of Moira – not that they’re mutually exclusive. In one, she’s a generic scientific genius and medical adviser. In the second, she’s Xavier’s human ally, superhero sceptic, and voice of reason, devoted to her daughter Rahne if sadly forever being occupied with more pressing matters. In the third, she’s actively steering the X-Men, particularly when Charles isn’t there to do it, or isn’t going in the desired direction; her focus on the bigger picture eclipses her interest in Rahne; and she has a recurring theme of survivor guilt, intended to reference Proteus and the victims of the Legacy Virus, but also well suited to the idea that she’s survived multiple previous timelines.
Obviously, there’s nothing in the earlier issues that positively points towards Hickman’s retcon. That goes without saying. It’s a bravura rewrite which imposes a new reading on earlier stories, which the original creators – in particular, Moira’s creator – plainly didn’t intend. You may have an issue with that, and fair enough. But I’m persuaded that Hickman’s retcon is broadly consistent with the spirit of the established character, particularly the third of the readings above. It’s not the only reading of Moira, but it’s certainly a thread that’s there to be found in her stories.
Here it is. A series called “X-Men: Grand-Design”. Seems to have taken six issues, begginning in late 2017 and ending, fittingly enough, at June 2019.
https://www.housetoastonish.com/?s=grand+design&submit=Search
Apparently the series is further subdivided in three secondary series of two issues each.
X-Men: Grand Design Vol. 1 (Silver Age)
X-Men: Grand Design – Second Genesis (first Claremont run, 1975-1991)
X-Men: Grand Design – X-Tinction (1991-on)
In hindsight, it feels almost like a stepping stone to Hickman’s approach, gently passing a fine comb to past stories and deciding which to neglect outright, which to emphasize, and with to retcon into something else than published.
Truth be told, it is hardly a new thing. Even Claremont himself retconned his own stories in the added material of Classic X-Men for much the same purpose.
Grand Design was great. It had one of those endings that was equally predictable and surprising.
It definitely streamlined and retconned X-Men history so that it all fit into one over-arching narrative.
At the same time, I think it served as a farewell letter to the previous era of X-Men. And the art was inspired in places.
It’s also not meant to be canon. It’s not really a retcon if it’s not in continuity.
Was it presented as non-canon? I don’t know about that.
Grand Design is non-canon. It’s basically “What If…? The X-Men ended when Claremont left?” I mean, it ends with America nuking Genosha at the end of X-Tinction Agenda, and then a year later it’s Days of Future Past.
It’s not Earth-616.
Wasn’t Blindfold uncermoniously killed off in the run just before this? Along with everyone else, but she conspicuously hast been resurrected (due to the no precog rule, I suppose). It would make a good plot for Armor and the other young characters to investigate why Blindfold hasn’t been brought back, and beginning to realise there’s more at play.
Col. Fury-Not exactly. You are right about it being non-canon…now. It’s not really a “What If?” story though, due to the twist ending.
It’s an alternate history version of Earth-616 continuity.
I don’t want to give away the twist ending, for those who haven’t read the story though.
It’s definitely not a ret-con of existing continuity though, no.
OK, I’m seeing some places online are saying that the infamous Shi’ar Golem is the also the name for the clone body that the Shi’ar provided for Professor X when he “died”.
It’s a body where the complete personality, consciousness, and memories of the original can be downloaded in to the new body, very much the same as what Xavier claims that they are doing on Krakoa, only using Shi’ar technology.
OK, so most of us assumed that this was like some sort of incredibly life-like dummy or something that Moira replaced herself with on Muir Isle right before Mystique was going to kill Moira.
This would suggest that Moira knew that Mystique was about to kill her.
However, what I’m now thinking is that when Moira said that she felt she was influencing events too directly, and she needed to remove herself from this life, and secretly set up events for her real plan, she wasn’t talking about faking her own death.
I think that was just fortuitous.
I think that Moira removed herself and replaced herself with this Shi’ar Golem earlier, now that I realize what a Shi’ar Golem actually means.
When did she do this? I’m not entirely sure. Sometimes after Claremont and before Ellis’ Excalibur is my guess.
She downloaded only part of her memories in to this Shi’ar Golem though.
She conveniently edited out any knowledge of herself being a mutant or having a master plan.
She went in to hiding and left the Shi’ar Golem in her place.
So, that could explain the great discrepancies between Hickman’s ret-con and the established continuity, without the need for paring away chunks of previously published comics.
Moira acted so differently because it was a different version of Moira. It was the Shi’ar Golem, not the real Moira.
I’m guessing that the upcoming Moira X series will show Moira working behind-the-scenes to covertly shape X-Men history so that the events leading up to the creation of Krakoa happen.
“Working between the raindrops of established X-Men continuity” or something similar is how Hickman described the series, I believe.
I’m guessing he means showing how Moira was secretly behind certain events, rather than that the series is going to attempt to shoehorn in an explanation for the problems accepting this Moira ret-con.
There’s no need for that, because the Moira we knew from comics such as Ellis’ Excalibur was a Shi’ar Golem version of Moira, while the real Moira was hiding away and plotting.
Very obviously Grand Design wasn’t canon. How anyone could be confused about that fact given the ending is incomprehensible. I loved the first volume, thought the second was a step down and the third a step down from that, aside from the twist ending which I enjoyed. I think the storytelling and art were excellent when it came to adapting the Silver Age stuff, but I felt like it just got clunkier as in went on and tried to adapt more modern stories.
I’m also wondering if Hickman isn’t planning some reveal about Mystique attempting to kill Moira.
Something which Claremont left open-ended (due to some poor plotting).
Something hinting at how Moira’s plan isn’t what it appears to be on the surface, once again.
Maybe Destiny gave Mystique another cryptic warning, this one about testing Moira, before Destiny died.
Remember, Mystique and Destiny were the ones who told Moira she needed to embrace the mutant cause.
Maybe Mystique worked with Moira to create a Legacy Virus that solely targeted humans.
When Moira refuses to play along with Mystique’s plan, she feels that Moira has gone against what Destiny warned her about, so now Mystique needs to kill Moira.
If the golem was a complete copy of Moira, the way Xavier’s “new body” was, wouldn’t it also have her life-restarting powers? Would this mean that Moira 11 is actually out there in another timeline right now?
Unless they messed with the clone’s DNA so that it didn’t have the X-gene.
Although, maybe that could explain Destiny’s comment about Moira having “ten, or maybe eleven lives” based on the choice she made in life ten.
Maybe that choice involved the creation of the golem.
The Moira that Destiny knew only gets ten lives, but the “maybe eleven” could be the existence of a Moira clone.
@Evilgus
That would be a great plot. One of the themes I liked about New X-Men was how Xavier said that his and Magneto’s day was done and that they are better off as inspirations to new generations.
A bunch of young X-Men unraveling the mystery of Blindfold (leading to Sabretooth…? And Moira…?) would be a nice example of youth / evolution / change vs. elder wisdom / stagnation / control.
“When Moira refuses to play along with Mystique’s plan, she feels that Moira has gone against what Destiny warned her about, so now Mystique needs to kill Moira.”
Didn’t Mystique also send the Brotherhood to kill Senator Kelly in that same story?
‘Remember, Mystique and Destiny were the ones who told Moira she needed to embrace the mutant cause.’
But those were Life Whatever Mystique and Destiny (Life 3?). What they knew of Moira isn’t necessarily what Current Life Mystique knows. Current Life Mystique knows only what Destiny told her, and so far we know she only had the vaguest warning of Krakoa, not anything Moira-specific.
It’s also not certain what Current Life Destiny actually knew – she probably could see the effects of Moira’s doings (since she can’t perceive Moira herself), but not the motivation behind those doings.
Unless there’s some further messing around with Destiny’s powers – she can see the future of her timeline. She can’t see Moira. She can see Moira’s effect on the world. But there’s no way she would have known about her own effect on Moira’s previous lives, since those were basically alternate realities where she herself wasn’t present. Other Destinies were, but Destiny’s powers aren’t cross-universal, right? She shouldn’t know what Life Three Destiny knew.
”Very obviously Grand Design wasn’t canon. How anyone could be confused about that fact given the ending is incomprehensible.”
Calling people stupid for having an opinion different from yours is the reason many of us are tired of your contributions here.
I’ve been assuming that Destiny learns about Moira’s reincarnation powers under the logic that Moira’s future includes that of Moira IV, V, etc., kind of unfurling her reincarnation loop into a series of linear futures.
But then Destiny says “I am much older than you are. My powers will have manifested with the knowledge of what we have done.”
That’s where I get confused. I took that statement to mean that Destiny IV’s powers will manifest knowing what Destiny III has done, which is cross-universal. I assume that’s true because she says…
“You see, Moira, we are joined together now, you and I”…it’s left vague whether or not that statement is valid for only Life III or for all subsequent lives.
Either Destiny knows about Moira and doesn’t care what she does (so long as she doesn’t try to hurt mutants) or she doesn’t know and will find out again and again. But for Moira, I guess those are functionally the same threat.
Maybe a sinister reading of Moira X “breaking all the rules” is somehow getting Destiny killed and continuing to operate, post Bad Girl phase in the Muir Island Saga.
Ooh! Ooh! Working theory, but what if Destiny is not really a precog but a time-rebooting mutant like Moira, and she’s been at it for a lot longer than ten lives?
What if, in reality, the reason Xavier won’t revive her is related to that?
It would certainly give a different spin on the quote CJ brought up: “I am much older than you are. My powers will have manifested with the knowledge of what we have done.”
It just came to me now, so I have no idea if it opens up story possibilities or just mucks up everything, but just thought I’d share.
“Maybe a sinister reading of Moira X “breaking all the rules” is somehow getting Destiny killed and continuing to operate, post Bad Girl phase in the Muir Island Saga.”
Wasn’t that Destiny sacrificing herself so that Legion wouldn’t kill Forge as well?
What if every mutant really has secret time-rebooting powers? heh
Destiny must be able to sense that something is important with Moira though.
Otherwise, her warnings to Moira in life three would be completely stupid.
“I warn you. We’ll hunt you down and kill you horribly until life eleven, when we’ll kill you for good!”
“Yeah, good luck with that. After I reboot the timeline, you won’t remember any of this. So, I’ll keep doing what I want.”
Destiny’s visions can be vague, but she might have gotten some sort of vision that revolved around Moira needing to be tested or something.
That would explain how Destiny’s warning and prophecy to Moira could work.
That’s also why it’s important that Mystique and Destiny are presented as caring about the mutant cause.
Otherwise, Destiny’s promise to Moira in life three is pointless too.
—————————————
CJ-I have no idea what “breaking all the rules” means either. That’s such a strange line.
I don’t know what rules Moira ever followed, especially considering her lives eight and nine.
It could apply to Destiny though.
Moira’s rule was to always embrace the mutant cause or be hunted down and killed.
Now, it’s life ten, which Moira believes will be her final actual life (she must either become immortal in life ten or be killed before the age of thirteen in life eleven).
Maybe she’s decided to “break the rules” by going against the mutant cause again.
Plus, it’s fortuitous that Destiny is killed by Legion in this life too.
@Dimitri
“Ooh! Ooh! Working theory, but what if Destiny is not really a precog but a time-rebooting mutant like Moira, and she’s been at it for a lot longer than ten lives?”
I like that idea, it would be a corker! But also incredibly confusing given her precog powers too. Still, I like the hypothesis!
I’ve got to be honest, giving Destiny powers similar to Moira’s seems like it would be a terrible, terrible idea. Having Moira be able to reboot the entire universe is already straining credibility, even for the bounds of a superhero comic. The thought of two characters with the same ability just makes my head hurt.
Honestly, I see the appeal of such a reveal – the symmetry alone would be enticing to some writers… Except, well, Destiny has been dead since 1989 and the Marvel Universe keeps on going. Just how many Shi’Ar Golems would we need to explain all of this?
Moira and Destiny both must die to actively reboot the entire universe?
“Calling people stupid for having an opinion different from yours is the reason many of us are tired of your contributions here.”
Dude, I didn’t call anyone stupid. I said it’s incomprehensible that someone could read a little standalone boutique miniseries that diverted wildly from established continuity and nuked everything before internally rebooting its own story and think it was canon. I’m criticising the logic and perhaps reading comprehension skills of these people, and if you read Grand Design you shouldn’t be defending these people against my mild insult or putting words in my mouth.
Things have truly never been better for mutants, but paradise comes at the steep cost of you guys dogpiling on me because you’re insecure or something.
Yeah! Come on, people!
He’s not insulting anyone, and you’re not allowed to be “defending these people against my mild insults” (actual quote) either!
That’s pure logic, baby!
”I’m criticising the logic and perhaps reading comprehension skills of these people”
So, you’re not calling them stupid, you’re saying they’re illogical and can’t read.
Got it. Because illogical people who can’t read are smart, not stupid.
@Chris V: “Moira and Destiny both must die to actively reboot the entire universe?”
Yes! Maybe that’s why Destiny says, “You see, Moira, we are joined together now, you and I.”
I was just throwing the idea around, but… but what if it actually adds up?
@Nu-D
Don’t forget insecure as well lol
Sorry if this is a bit off topic, but when someone mentioned earlier about wanting to see “The Complete Xavier” and “The Complete Magneto”, I tried to think of an X-Men character who *wouldn’t* make for a terribly interesting “The Complete” treatment. Fred Duncan was the first character that popped into my head.
I found a marvel.fandom wiki entry for him here…
https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Frederick_Duncan_(Earth-616) where I read the following:
“The idea of the X-Men having an official government liaison was downplayed when the series moved in a more paranoid direction.”
Those words struck me as awfully familiar, so I checked Paul’s Silver Age X-Men index entry for X-Men #2 (Duncan’s first appearance) where I saw that Paul had written the following:
“The whole idea of the X-Men having official government liaisons was quietly downplayed when the book moved in a more paranoid direction.”
That’s almost word for word! Do you realize what this means? That’s right. Paul is a plagiarist!
I’m saying they either have poor reading comprehension skills or they were not thinking clearly. Did any of you folks jumping on me for this actually read Grand Design? It was very, very clearly a fun Ed Piskor side project, my dudes. I’ll happily recap the ending in great detail to clarify that my comments aren’t controversial.
Your opinion about Grand Design isn’t controversial.
Your inability to refrain from casually insulting people who have a different opinion is obnoxious.
@Dazzler, I am SO relieved that you are here to protect us from those awful people.
But if you meet them, can you get me an autograph? I would like to have evidence that they exist and that they gave me a thought.
Please include a copy of your diagnosis, so that I can explain to the children a few decades down the line what the fuss was all about.
On a more serious note, I neither now nor care whether Grand Design is or was somehow flagged as explicitly non-canon. We have seen weirder things happen than such a statement being overturned without much of a warning.
Not that I care about your opinion on my abilities, mind you, @Dazzler. I do not need a minder to “protect” me from misjudging the role or canonical status of a six-issue miniseries. Believe it or else, my life is largely unaffected by those things, even when I misunderstand the specifics.
But if I _did_ need or want such a minder, I would choose someone who can show more respect than uncalled judgement, rest assured.
On another note, I don’t understand why people talk about Moira’s powers as if people simply ceased to exist when she dies in any timeline. We have no reason whatsoever to believe that this might be the case. And if we did, the implication would be that Moira is somehow cosmically significant to a level that arguably exceeds that of Galactus… because the universe is apparently meant to end along with her 10th or 11th life.
I just don’t think that is how it works.
@Luis,
I think that’s an open question. Certainly there were parts of HoX/PoX where the characters assumed that Moira’s death rebooted the universe to her conception. Destiny and Mystique at the end of life 3 seem to think so, as does Wolverine at the end when he kills Moira. After all, if the machines still run things after Moira dies, why kill her? I think Hickman wants us to assume it’s all rebooted when she dies.
But it’s certainly not clear. There’s room for future writers to establish that each life of Moira establishes a new alternate timeline.
Luis, I apologize for insulting your ability to discern canon from a standalone boutique side project by a notable indie creator. The fact that I can’t comprehend how you got this mixed up is the problem here, and I should have kept it to myself even if it meant I’d never ever figure out how it was possible. For once I’m the one who’s dazzled.
Yeah, so far we have no evidence that the universe actually reboots when Moira dies.
Just that Moira reboots into herself as a fetus, which I believe allows the previous universe to continue on without her via the branching timeline theory that Marvel thrives on.
Otherwise, why would Mystique and Destiny kill Moira outright in life 3? That seems like a good way for them to also commit suicide, which I assume they didn’t want to do.
I’m not saying I’m absolutely right, just that it’s not what we know at this point.
That was very big of me. Being nice feels kinda satisfying!
Oops — I think our replies overlapped there.
@Nu-D: “After all, if the machines still run things after Moira dies, why kill her?”
Good point. So the idea is that Moira resets the entire universe to the time of her conception (or thereabouts)? Legit asking because that’s an interesting thought.
Another (contrary) thought: the Wolverine who killed Moira in life 6 (the one in the far future when the post-humans were ascending) was screwed either way. The post-humans had called the Phalanx and they were starting their ascension process, right? If Wolverine and Moira were keeping their eyes on the ultimate prize (survival of mutantkind in some timeline at whatever cost), then he had to kill her to achieve that goal. So him killing her could work either way (taking that timeline back to Moira’s conception or starting a new timeline altogether).
I guess what I’m saying is that it still seems ambiguous to me, but I want to hear more about your theory.
I read it as a reboot of the whole timeline (but maybe not the rest of the multiverse). I think that’s how Hickman wanted us to read it. But I agree there’s no definitive answer as yet.
Pretty sure we discussed it on one of the HoX/PoX threads, ad nauseum. Also, over in the forums at unstablemolecules.com
I’m beginning to suspect Dazzler is really Matthew Rosenberg lashing out.
@Luis
I think the reason a lot of people assume the whole universe reboots when Moira dies is because it’s the narrative that works best dramatically for that story.
If Moira just switches universes within the context of the story, then there’s little reason to care what she achieves in her tenth life, since that doesn’t do anything to save the nine other universes. More people will have suffered through Moira’s trial and error than have been saved in her tenth life. I don’t think that makes for a good climax.
So, the way I see it, in the context of this run and this run only, chances are the story is going to follow the rule that she reboots the universe (note that doesn’t mean universes died at the end of her nine lives; it means that they never existed anymore and so there’s nothing to mourn). This opens the door to a more effective and satisfying climax.
However, the Marvel universe being an unending saga in constant revision, I fully expect that, somewhere down the line, someone will want to explore certain implications of Moira’s previous lives and consequently reveal that these universes are still out there. From this point, the MU will follow the rule that she just switched universes. HoXPoX will no longer make sense dramatically, but nobody will mind because the story will have already been told and was dramatically satisfying (hopefully) when we first read it.
For an example of this, consider the original Days of Future Past. When the story was originally published, it was important to believe that this was likely the future of the Marvel universe. Otherwise, Kate’s journey through time (and the sacrifices made to ensure her journey) meant nothing for her people.
But once the story was told, the DOFP timeline was eventually confirmed as an alternate timeline that can be revisited, and no reader is really bothered that all the DOFP X-Men got themselves killed for nothing — because it wasn’t for nothing within the rules of the original story.
I second what Dimitri wrote above.
Here’s a discussion we had on the topic over at UXN.net.
https://unstablemolecules.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=9292&p=193548&hilit=Reboot#p193548
I’m burnt out on the topic. So I’m out.
@Dazzler, no apology is necessary.
You failed to insult me. I realized from the get go that you had no idea of what you were talking about, and promptly denied you the ability to insult me.
You’re welcome.
As for Moira’s power’s exact mechanics, we know that from her POV reality reboots. But that only means that _she_ has no access to her previous lives except as memories.
While that has been changed since, Marvel famously established back in Marvel Two-in-One #50 that time travel does not allow one to change the past, but rather to visit or perhaps create new timelines. How, if at all, that applies to Moira’s rather unique form of time travel is so far a matter for speculation.
The way I see it, when Destiny or Wolverine kill one version of Moira they are certainly intending to jumpstart her next life. What effect, if any, do they expect to have on themselves? I don’t think that they can tell, but I find it even less likely that they expect their own existences to finish just because Moira’s did.
What sounds more likely: that a living Moira is somehow a necessary sustaining piece for the existence of the universe itself (or let’s make it just Earth, perhaps) – presumably due to a biological mutation, mind you, and apparently only from the moment of her birth – or that her mutation gave her the ability to travel back in time under very specific, very limited circunstances? She keeps her memories from before the time travel, of course, but that is the expected result of time travel in the Marvel Universe (and in most sci fi).
I don’t remember the specifics of Destiny’s statements, but she is hardly reliable for the purposes of establishing the boundaries of Moira’s powers. She may well be bluffing outright, for instance. Also, we know that Moira died in an apparent random accident in one of her early lives. That strongly suggests that there are random events that change between Moira’s lives without necessarily having resulted from anything relating to Moira. Maybe it is just me, but that does not mesh well with the idea that Moira is some sort of cosmic shaper of reality.
I guess I just assumed that Moira-6’s version of Wolverine reached much the same conclusions and killed Moira not so much in the expectation of a reboot of “his” reality as to improve the chances that future Moiras would find or help create a better future. His own life would go on (perhaps miserably) after he killed Moira, but she would go on to start again in another timeline or manifestation.
That was certainly my reading of it, although it can of course be constested or proven wrong at some point.
That’s how I read it at first, too, Luis. But I’m coming around to the other explanation — thanks, Nu-D and Dimitri!
Suddenly, the Librarian’s comments from life 6 make sense. He was worried that Moira would foil his plans by dying at the moment of ascension (along with everyone else) and going back in time to keep the ascension from happening in that same timeline. If she was simply going to affect another timeline, then why would he care if she lived or died?
Weird that he was confident enough to tell her his fears, though, when it’s obvious she could just kill herself at any moment and do exactly what he was afraid of.
Also, I’m still not convinced that Destiny and Mystique would willingly reboot themselves in life 3 just to punish Moira. They could have accomplished the same end by simply letting her live out her life into old age. Sure, they’d have to keep an eye on her, but how hard would that be?
Alright, I’m still on the fence, but this is really interesting.
Right. It seems that all reality does reboot, based on life six.
It was important that the Phalanx be able to keep Moira alive, because otherwise, reality would reboot itself and the post-humans’ victory would disappear.
That seems to be Hickman saying on the page that all of reality does reboot.
Otherwise, Moira is just traveling from alternate reality to alternate reality, creating new divergent timelines.
Something that Hickman seems to have wanted to avoid saying about Moira’s power, so he made life six’ ending point to all of reality rebooting.
I guess Mystique and Destiny realized that they’d get a chance to live their lives over again anyway.
Kind of nihilistic, but also remember that Destiny was the one who said that machines will always win over the mutants.
So, maybe they felt that Moira was their best hope to see their goal of mutants becoming the dominant species occurring.
As far as the Librarian, I believe that the Librarian showed some trepidation about post-humanity’s goals of becoming part of a hive mind and scouring the Earth of all other life.
So, I think that the Librarian sort of hoped that Moira would kill herself and reboot reality.
I might be misremembering that part though.
Yeah, the Librarian considered that if Moira were to die, then she could prevent Homo novissima from becoming absorbed by the Phalanx.
He explicitly states that he thinks her death will annihilate the current timeline / reality. Of course, he could be wrong. He thinks that if they get absorbed by a Dominion that they will be outside of time and space–which sounds to me that they would be unaffected by Moira reboots.
This “transcendental” Dominion would tie into some other plots from HoXPoX, since in the Hickman-verse, black holes are supermassive collapsed hive machine brains (checking…yep, I just typed that), and we know some characters from Life 9 got sucked into one (is Xorn a machine?). That could be a way to get those characters into the current 616 universe, via some Dominion looking for Moira.
That Dominion would, as the Librarian ominously said, “Would know you forever”. Echoes of Destiny there.
Moira is not necessary for the existence of the universe, because that means that the Marvel Universe is going to end very soon.
Destiny said that Moira had ten or eleven lives and pointed out that if Moira died before her mutant powers activated, it would be the end of Moira’s existence.
Since Destiny said that Moira has eleven lives at most, that would seem to imply that Moira is destined to die before the age of thirteen in her next life.
I doubt that everything in existence is going to end, for eternity, because Moira is dead.
Also, Moira is not a cosmic shaper of reality.
She just keeps rebooting reality with her own death, back to the time of her birth.
Earth-616’s reality keeps going the same as it ever did from the dawn of time until the birth of Moira. That never changes.
Then, Moira has the chance to make new decisions to impact how the future might be changed after her birth-year.
So, World War II will always happen (for example), no matter how many times Moira lives or dies. Moira cannot change that.
So, yes, based on living in a non-deterministic universe, little things can happen that end Moira’s life at random, and the universe reboots again.
Everything has happened exactly the same way, until Moira is born, and then Moira gets a chance to attempt to shape her present anew again.
I realize that Destiny or the Librarian probably rationally cannot be considered to be reliable when it comes to knowledge of Moira’s powers.
However, I think we need to accept authorial license with these plot-points.
Hickman wants to intrude in to the story and show the reader how Moira’s power works, but it would be impossible to prove on the page that Moira’s powers don’t involve alternate realities and that the Earth-616 universe really does end and reboot with Moira’s death.
So, Hickman has to have some characters intrude and get his point across on the page for the readers.
I can’t see any other reason why Destiny or the Librarian would be so positive about their knowledge of Moira’s mutant power.
Maybe Hickman might explain this later, in some way. Perhaps Destiny somehow exists as the same individual in each of Moira’s lifetimes.
So, when all of reality reboots with Moira’s death, Destiny (at the point of Moira’s death) does not reboot.
So, when Moira died in lives one and two, Destiny continued to exist (at that point of death) after the reboot, and was able to figure out how Moira’s mutant powers work.
Maybe the Librarian knew because the Librarian was in contact with the Phalanx, who are presumably in contact with god-like beings existing outside of time and space.
So, they informed the Librarian that Moira needed to be kept alive forever.